Ep. 57- Kim Schneiderman: Step Out of Your Story

As you know I love having my friends on my podcast. Kim and I have known each other for about 18 years and she continues to impress me with her insight and talent.

Kim Schneiderman, LCSW, is a psychotherapist, workshop facilitator, Psychology Today blogger and the author of “Step Out of Your Story: Writing Exercises to Reframe and Transform Your Life.” 

Kim integrates Internal Family Systems, Focusing, the Enneagram, and Jungian archetypes into her spiritually-oriented psychotherapy practice in Manhattan.

In this episode we discuss

How to reframe your narrative about difficult chapter in life.

Finding hope in dark places

Being a therapist while sharing the same fears and other emotions during a pandemic + much more. 

You can buy her book "Step Out of Your Story: Writing Exercises to Reframe and Transform Your Life" here: https://amzn.to/2BREkDq

Every day we relate stories about our highs and lows, relationships and jobs, heartaches and joys. But do we ever consider the choices we make about how to tell our story? In this groundbreaking book, Kim Schneiderman shows us that by choosing a different version we can redirect our energy and narrative toward our desires and goals. She presents character development workouts and life-affirming, liberating exercises for retelling our stories to find redemptive silver linings and reshape our lives.

As both a therapist and a writer, Schneiderman knows the power of story. By employing the storytelling techniques she offers, you’ll learn to view your life as a work in progress and understand big-picture story lines in ways that allow you to easily steer your actions and relationships toward redefined — and realistic — “happy endings.”

Jason Wasser Therapist/Coach

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Transcript

Intro: 0:00

This is the you winning life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learning from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship. So you can be winning life. Now, here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist and certified neuro emotional technique practitioner and a certified entrepreneur coach, Jason Wasser.

Jason Wasser, LMFT: 0:37

Today's guest is licensed clinical social worker, psychotherapist workshop, facilitator psychology today, blogger and the author of step out of your story, writing exercises to reframe and transform your life. Kim Schneiderman. She integrates internal family systems focusing on the Enneagram and youngian archetypes and her spirituality oriented psychotherapy, private practice in Manhattan. She's also, I don't even know how many years we've known each other at this point a long time, but a friend a long time.

Kim Schneiderman: 1:10

I want to say, I want to say like 20 years, maybe

Intro: 1:13

It's probably been at that point, right? So it's not only exciting to have you on as an expert in your area as an author, but also as a, as a longstanding friend. So Kim, thanks so much for hanging out with us today. So right off the bat, let's start off with the idea, the story of how did you end up becoming a therapist? Like, what was that about? Like when did you know, how did you now, and let's go into a little bit of that backstory because I know it's fascinating to me, how people decided to do that, which they do.

Kim Schneiderman: 1:48

Yeah. Um, so my career path that didn't follow a straight line, um, it really I'd always wanted to be a writer. I actually wanted to work in copywriting for advertising. And, um, I was sort of turned off when one of my, like English professors in college said that like the greatest copywriters of our time had like sold their souls to Nike shoes. And then I thought, okay, well mate, do I, do I still wanna, you know, I was sort of like, whatever. Anyway, I started as, so I, I, um, happened to land my first job as a journalist. And, um, during that time I was living in San Francisco and just struggling with some internal stuff and, and got into therapy. And so that was sort of my first sort of my introduction into psychotherapy and self exploration. Um, and, um, I was, I was more and more curious about it. Um, I also, as at that time sort of beginning a spiritual journey and that coincided with that, um, there, wasn't really sure whether I wanted to be a therapist or, um, a professor psychology and religion or a rabbi, and to make a long story short, um, just through the process really of going to social work school and doing my first clinical placement at, um, a family service agency. Um, I realized that I really love clinical social work and it, it kind of,

Intro: 3:18

Yeah, well, it sounds to me like all three of those areas, right? The business side, the therapeutic side, and the spiritual side do go hand in hand with the work that you and I do with our people. And we don't necessarily call it spirituality, but when you're working on self right personal development, personal growth, right. We have this therapy and new school way of thinking about therapy that old school's like, what's that old joke and it's late. And it's like, if you have a therapist, there's something wrong with you. But over the last, thankfully 10, 15 years. And I, and I, and I see this more as you know, the few years that I did my time in New York, um, back in 98 to 2001, the position was if you don't have a therapist, there's something wrong with you. And do you think that there's been that shift, especially, maybe like, cause you're in New York, you're in Manhattan, right? You're in the, um, you know, the hub of the, you know, one of the epicenters of the world. Do you think like the, the stigma, um, one on one, so it's really two pronged question one, the stigma has changed, but to the work that you do is not just about like mental health, it is about spirituality is about personal development. It is. And that's kind of why your focus has led you where you focus.

Kim Schneiderman: 4:26

Absolutely. In fact, I'm part of, um, an organization. It's a, it's a interdisciplinary interfaith collective called the psychotherapy and spirituality Institute. And what's different about us is that we welcome, um, conversations that integrate spirituality or look through things. You know, we, we, we take a mind, body spirit approach to psychotherapy, um, and so much, you know, so much I think about this work, as you mentioned, is about use of self and the more that you're developing and the more that you're growing, the more accessible, the more, the more helpful that you can be to other people, you know, as you deepen in your own compassion towards yourself, you create a space to be more compassionate to others.

Intro: 5:13

Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about like this narrative, cause I know one of the things that you and I are both huge fans of is like this narrative that we carry, right. I'm trained as a marriage and family therapy. And one of the models that we're big about is both solution focused and narrative therapy. And, and I know that's something that you've really delve deep into. You have written a book about this type of thing. Um, I remember years ago when I first started off in therapy and you know, there was all these models that talk about scripting right now, turn to turn to your partner or turn to your friend or turn to your family member and say this, and now you turn back and you acknowledge it and you say this to them. Right. And it was, it felt like very forced and very like not organic. And then I, as I evolved and as I learned more, and as I grew in my own as a therapist to realize how powerful scripts are, but how much the scripts that we already carry consciously and unconsciously keep us back from our, our potential, keep us back from really being in the moment, really being in the experience because of all of the programming that we carry that doesn't allow us to see what we're actually seeing, because we have all these bias filters. Right, right. So can you break that down for us? Can you break that down, um, for the listeners about what that means? A what's, what's a narrative B what are some of those potential scripts and filters and layers or schemas, or what are all the different terms that we can use to throw at it that you help people see that we should be acknowledging and maybe looking for as we journey and experience our world?

Kim Schneiderman: 6:44

Sure. So I want to make a distinction between like people often mistakenly identify me as a narrative therapist. And actually when I was coming up with the idea for my book, I went to a workshop or a weekend actually with David White, who's the founder of narrative therapy to see if these ideas that I was coming up with with Ashley narrative therapy and what I realized that it wasn't, it was something kind of along the lines of, but it was sort of my own thing. And I can just tell you, like, I mean, a narrative that we're constantly using language to make sense of the world, right. And how we tell, like we're constantly telling our stories all day long or telling our stories to ourselves, we're telling art, telling our stories to each other. And that's how we're sort of like creating our world, right. It's through speech and how we, how we tell our story is really important because how we tell our story affects how we feel about our story and how we feel about our story is so influential, you know, in terms of like how it unfolds, you know, the whole self fulfilling prophecy. So if you know, and there are many ways, I think sometimes human suffering is the sort of the, this is a storytelling deficit, right? It's like the failure to find a coherent cause and effect narrative that helps us make meaning of our, of our world. And oftentimes I think people, um, get very, very stuck in telling their story in a particular way, like a self defeating story. And often times like I've used in my book and in my writing workshops, I often use wizard us as an example, right? There's like, there's a wizard of us narrative. The self-defeating story, you know, is it Dorothy, you know, is really unhappy at home. And she gets swept up in a tornado, you know, and somebody wants to kill her dog and she gets swept up in tornado and she kills us, which, and then she's pursued by, you know, she has all this bad luck she's pursued by this evil, which, and, you know, and she gets the, then finally like this wizard turns out to be a fraud. And then she finally comes home and nobody believes, you know, she says, I went on this journey and nobody believes her, right. That's the self-defeating story. But most of us read it as what I call a sole narrative, you know, because what it, and that the soul narrative is, I'm looking at it through the lens of how does Darthy grow. You know, she starts off as this, um, really sort of disenchanted young girl who dreams that you know, of, of greener pastures over the rainbow and then certain, you know, through no agency of her own, other than running away, she swept up into, to this other universe where she undergoes all these kinds of like trials and tribulations that helps her really get to know her own heart. And by the end of the story, she's a different person. Right? And so my narrative therapy is really about my way of narrative therapy. And again, I don't do traditional narrative therapy is, um, is really looking at your life as someone stole, you know, an unfolding story, a unique, unpredictable dynamic, and potentially heroic story. That's open to interpretation, especially your own, you know, and so like, and seeing yourself as the evolving protagonist in that story. And really, really, and I want to say one more thing I know is really, really valuing character development and your own character development. So that's how I, that's how I,

Intro: 10:26

Well, one of my favorite new phrases that I've adopted from, um, one of my coaches, coach Michael Bird, is you can see the picture when you're in the frame, right? So a lot of times the story that we keep telling is a broken record that will only allow us to get the same outcomes of the story that we keep telling. So the first part, right? I think that I, and I had this conversation literally an hour ago with one of my clients is sometimes, and I always apologize first. I'm like, well, what I'm about to say, please do not think I'm an asshole for what I'm about to say. And I want to honor you because I want, always want to create space for you to say this in our sessions for you to know that you can share anything with me, but of the, of what you just shared with me, how many times from the day that we've gotten to know each other over our last 10 sessions, do you think you've shared that exact story with me? Right. And how much more about that story do you think I need to know? Or do you think I don't understand or don't get, and then three, if you need to keep telling that story, what do you think other people aren't getting about you and the experience or having through that, that you need to keep telling that over and over again. Wow. Right. And for how you feel, how do you feel when you retell that story? Right. So I'm trying to like distinguish right as I'm sure you have your write your ways into that of, is it you, are you being you or are you being the story that you're telling? Right. And I think that's what, like you and I have a lot in common. We might, we might be doing it in different ways, in different interventions, but I think we do it very similarly as well of like everybody out there, who's listening to this conversation. You are constantly telling yourselves the same things that are allowing you to have the right, excuse me, the continuous same outcomes over and over again. And then you get upset at yourself for not having or the persons around you, not having different experiences or different outcomes. Because everything that you're saying and talking about it is leading to that, to that same outcome and our job and in collaboration and partnership with the people that we work with is to get them to take ownership over that. So they can start telling a different story so they can start. And I always start with challenging words. I'm like, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Can we just say that sentence over again? But can we, what does that one word in there mean to you? I'm like, Oh, I don't even know why I use that word. How long, how long do every time you describe it to use that same word? What does that word actually mean? It doesn't actually mean what you write or if we put it in a different word, we insert a different word that it means the same, but it just has a different intensity to it automatically gives them a very different perspective or able to be more strategic. This, one of the things I loved, um, I had this recently with a client where they were talking about like how they felt obligated, how they were constantly be disappointment. I'm like, well, who, who, who were you disappointing? She she's like, I don't know. Like it's like that. Like, I feel like I'm disappointing them to them. Who's the VA. And it turned out it was someone from 24 years ago in their senior year of high school that they're no longer in touch with. Right, right. Right. So I'm like, I'm like, wow. So what's, what's all of our, they are them who is the them that we're doing things in our life that we're scripting ourselves, that we're acting over and over again that have the fear of either proving ourselves or disappointing ourselves to the others. So I'm wondering like how much of that, like, as you talk about like the soulful journey, what are some of those like possible days that you have found to be consistent patterns? Cause I know right. You get into young and stuff and you get into Enneagram, which let's spend some time on, on that lens, you know, in this area.

Kim Schneiderman: 14:15

Well, actually I want to, as I was listening to you, you know, it's like, you know, so many paths to the same mountain mountaintop. Um, because I started off just to say, like I started off in a much more cognitive, you know, storytelling through a much more cognitive, cognitive lens. I mean, so much of my, of my book is really about like writing exercises. I mean, I use the third person narrative, which helps people, people get some psychological distance from their story. Right. Because when we write and I there's so much ego involved and we need a little bit of distance, so, um, but it really is sort of like, and I think that it does, it, it it's, it's a little bit more cognitive and intro. And since I wrote my book, I've been in trained in internal family systems, which is a much more sematic therapy. And as you were talking, I was thinking about like, when like from a, from an ifs perspective, people sometimes show up with their storyteller part and that storyteller part can be white. And I have one too, so I know this and it, you know, like I have a part, like, I want you to hear your story. But I also know that that narrow narrative part of mine is coming from a place from like my childhood wound, my exile in ifs, terms of not being seen. So like, I'm going to tell you my story, because I want to make sure that you really, really get me because if you misunderstand me, then I'm going to feel really alone and that's going to make me feel like I'm a kid again. Right.

Intro: 15:48

No, my existence may or may not have any validity or vet right. Or value, whatever. That's right.

Kim Schneiderman: 15:54

Yeah. I mean, it's so, so the storytelling part can be a part, a way of getting of like someone cause one of the questions, typical ifs question is if that part couldn't do its job, like why is that part doing what it's doing? And if it had to step back, what is it concerned that you would feel the idea is every part is trying to protect you and help you in its own way. And the eye in sometimes it's like, well, I'd feel, you know, a particular grief or I'd feel sadness or I'd feel, you know, it's, it's trying to keep you from some sort of pain. And so I think storytelling parts can at times get us in, like, if someone's telling the same story over and over again, it can be a way of avoiding that pain or that wound that it's protecting, you know? Um, and

Intro: 16:43

Sometimes it becomes the scapegoat

Kim Schneiderman: 16:45

Go back to the day. So like in the way that you found like that they was from like 20 years ago in ifs and sometimes ifs has done with your eyes closed. And I have people like syncing into different like body part embodied parts of themselves. You'll find out that like a memory will come up. Right? Cause our parts are stuck in the past. That, that you'll find out in a different way, through an embodied way, your body will reveal like your body needs to feel safe enough to share its story. And if you can create that safety, it'll show you the story of the Bay as opposed to somebody telling you. Right. So that's why I'm thinking it's like different ways of getting

Intro: 17:26

Yeah. Right. Well, I mean any good therapist shouldn't be telling them with that is right. Old unfold, that package. Um, but yet we have so many times we've heard stories about that. Like, Nope, you're wrong. This is what it is. I know more about your reality than you do, you know? And it's something because especially in the world of neuro emotional technique, um, all we do is like, right. It's we shrug our shoulders when a story comes up and like, I don't know, that's your emotional reality. We don't know what that, you know, we're not here to tell you what that means. That's your emotional reality that your mind body has come up with, right. To, to explain that in some form of a narrative, whether it's congruent with actual timeline, reality or not is not really our concern. It's, what's that story that you've created. That's either helping or hindering you right. In a lot of ways, right. That term, the scapegoat, right. How did this part of you become a scapegoat or a protector or a healer or who are you honoring? Who's right. Who in your family, are you honoring? Who in your history are you honoring by continuing to carry that story? One of my favorite examples of this, and I don't know if you've ever heard her say it is from Esther Hicks in the law of attraction world, where she went over to a friend's house and the friend was playing some album and like, Oh, that's, that's really interesting music. She's like, yeah, it's my mom's favorite album. And she's like, well, is your mom here? And she's like, no, she's like, well, that's cool. Do you like the music? She's like, no, I don't like it. She's like, well, why are you playing it? She goes well, because it was my mom's favorite album.

Kim Schneiderman: 18:55

Right.

Intro: 18:56

And how we constantly do that in so many different parts of our lives, where we're unconsciously, right. Honoring things, even that we don't feel good for us. Things that don't uplift us things that don't allow us to be more expansive because we're doing this unfinished business of honoring or playing out some type of role in some way, shape or form that doesn't necessarily serve us. Right. On one side, it serves us to be dutiful, to be honor full, to be, to, to keep a connection, but can we find a healthier, better way to honor keep connection and stuff like that and, right,

Kim Schneiderman: 19:27

Right. So the devil that you know is better than the devil that yeah.

Intro: 19:30

And it's sometimes it's the devil that you aren't even aware that, you know, right. In this con right. In this, in this unconscious,

Kim Schneiderman: 19:35

Well, that's why like, and I wanted to talk about this. Like why I think right now is a really unique time in our lives. I mean, it's a really challenging time and heavy time. Um, but it is a unique time for, for us to really step out of our stories and ask ourselves, like who's writing our script, you know, what character am I playing and does that, you know, does that, does that fit right. You know, and, and also, and I, and I think this is individually and collectively, right? It's like a time to pause, you know, because we're, so we've, we've been for so long, so busy and I'm myself included in playing these roles, you know, and staying on top of these roles that we play. And, um, and not, you know, when you're so busy, you just don't have time to do that kind of reflection. I think this time really can be a really good and, and has been from what, not only, not only for myself, but like I'm noticing in a lot of my clients and that's not to say that, that this is not to whitewash over all of the pain because that is present. But you know, this is even like, this is an embodied crucible that we're in right now. And that's pushing us to feel the pain in the areas of our life that do not work and both individually and collectively. And so that's how, you know, we are, we are giving, getting a chance to really step out of our story, to step out of our lives and look at it from sort of this broader perspective in a way that we have, you know, in our lifetime, in my lifetime, never been get, or never get in collectively, maybe individually, some of us had had these experiences, these dark nights of the soul, or, you know, the loss of a parent, which I've been through to, to cancer where you have that alone or with a few people that you share the loss with. But as a, as a, as a society, it's, it's really different. And, and everybody feels like everybody's doing that work, you know?

Intro: 22:00

Yeah. Well, do you find it's more, I don't want to use the word polarizing, but maybe more binary where there are people who are, you know, the word that I think was used the most, the first 30, 45 days of this, especially in my entrepreneurial circles is pivot. How are you pivoting? How are you taking advantage of this? How are you not being a victim to this? How are you? Especially if you're a business owner, right? Like I had to, um, within this span of 24 hours, actually the second to last weekend of March, I was in Asheville, North Carolina, doing a retreat with a buddy of mine for some young professional entrepreneurs. And Saturday night at one o'clock two o'clock in the morning, I had to compile an email. I had to make sure I had zoom and set up the rooms and make sure that privacy was coming in. And I had like people in the group, like, okay, now try to log into my thing. And like all of a sudden, one of them popped in and I'm like, Oh crap, that's gonna break confidentiality. No, no what setting. Right. I had literally reformat my entire practice and then cut up an email and write what's the talk about copywriting to make sure that, uh, I had only two clients who said they didn't want to continue one. I did after our conversations continued right after saying, I'm not sure if I want to do this. Cause it's going to be weird. Right. But the way that I languaged my email to my clients was not, do you want to continue? But the practices continuing your session is scheduled. As usual, instead of driving to my office, this is the button you're going to click to talk to me. You're still gonna have a waiting room. It's not gonna be the waiting room. My office. It's gonna be a waiting room as my session ends. And you'll see it. You're right. Literally say the waiting room, right. As doom has it. So I literally like I had to do some psychoeducation, but give it to them as the narrative that I had to do, the scripting, how to do the copywriting I to do was life is going on normal in some way, shape or form. It's just going to be different. And I realized this, that one of the questions that especially people in our field or practitioners or healers are helping, right. That we're where we can see someone one-on-one and still do what we do is we shouldn't be saying, it's going to feel different. We know it's going to feel different. We should honor. It's going to feel different. The focus should be will. The value will still be there. Right. And I think that was like one of the big things like for people who have had to pivot during this, are they being proactive? Or they're like, Oh my God, technology sucks. I hate technology. I'm afraid of technology. Right? That thing that we hear from certain populations, that's going to make this process more difficult for them versus seeing this as I'm going to go on an adventure, I'm going to use this to learn all the things that I've been waiting to get on my list to learn and jump on the bandwagon. Right. And embrace the shift and change that our industry for sure was 10 years behind the ball on right. With telehealth and everything like that. Right. Over or be right again, it's the empower mode. I'm going to take this as an adventure. I'm excited about this. Yes. It's going to be work. Yes. It could be effort, but I'm going to, or, Oh God, this really sucks. Now I got to do this. Right. So what are you seeing out there? Cause right. You're you're you're you guys, especially in New York. I mean, you've been like, you got hit hard and everybody's isolated and everybody's been working from home as much as possible.

Kim Schneiderman: 25:01

I mean, I feel very grateful that it's been, um, kind of a seamless transition for me. My clients just sort of took, most of them just sort of took to the new platform. Um, and I, you know, I think I, I'm part of this group and we meet every Wednesday morning and share our experiences and everybody's a little, you know, has zoom fatigue. Um, it's not the same thing as sitting in a room with someone and sensing their energy. But in terms of like pivoting, I think more in terms of, um, well, first of all, like we're pivoting along with everybody else. And I think that that's part of what makes Cove this whole experience really unique is that we are actually fellow PA, you know, I always say to my clients, I'm a fellow passenger here, we're on this journey together. You know, how often is someone like the same stress is one of your clients is going through exactly the same thing. And you have to be very careful that because, you know, we're always looking as therapists, we're always looking for countertransference, right. We always want to be careful that we're not like, um, imposing our own fears or, and you know, and someone can say something and it can trigger like, Oh my God, am I going to get COVID? You know, it's so it's, it's a really, first of all, I was gonna say, that's a really unique, that's a really unique experience and the pivot that, I mean, mainly, I mean, mint, the pivot that I'm kind of working with with my clients is more the internal. One of like, how do you pivot your fucking excuse language? Yeah. You're fine. Your life, you know, like you were your life, you expected your life to look one way and now it looks totally different. And the way, one of the ways that I've been sort of reframing it is like, you know what, spiritual bootcamp, you know, I had one client, I even said she was, she was someone who was an Alanon, um, working on, you know, her sort of addictive relationship patterns, always needing to be in a relationship, you know, falls in love, easily kind of thing. And now she's sort of alone. And I was like, and she was really, you know, like, and it's bringing up all of these, you know, what happens when your experiences is that it does bring up all of your pain and your, from your childhood and that's coming up for her. And, um, you know, and she's PR she's a pretty, she's, um, a pretty self aware, you know, uh, client very invested in her therapy. Um, and I kind of said to her, wow, this is so she could hear this. And I sort of said, wow, this is really your codependency bootcamp. Isn't it? She's like, Oh yes. And that has been her whole reef. And that really helped her. It helped to reframe the whole thing. It's like, Oh, this is my opportunity to work on my stuff. Like this is going to be the time that I get to look inside and develop all of those, like flat, you know, flabby, underdeveloped, emotional muscles, so that I can, you know, that character development workout that had been avoiding so that I can really emerge from this, you know, a stronger, you know, a more evolved human being for sure. That's kind of the pivot I've been working on sort of with everybody and it's it's, and then I just want to talk to, and there's a really hard stuff. I mean, one of my clients is, um, there is a very well known, um, restaurant, owner and chef. Um, she's been in the public eye a lot, especially lately as a representative, she lost her frigging. She lost her biz, you know, like she didn't lose her business. Okay. She actually do that. But the fear of that is so intense and, um, that's a really intense pivot to make no for anybody. I mean, she's, she's a survivor and she's, you know, brilliant she'll, I'm Nosha land on her feet, but, um,

Intro: 29:04

Or for you to see that then someone who is stuck in that story. Right. And I think that's like, what you're hitting on is so huge that I want everybody who's listening to this to really understand that, like, when you talk about this being the bootcamp and I'm visioning like no you're being thrown into the deep end with no floaties on and, and write everything that you are ever afraid of for every worried about all your anxieties, all your fears, all your insecurities, right? This is like the massive mega flashlight that's being shown on that. And again, I think that's the duality of this whole scenario is predisposed personality traits, right. Of the, you know, it's going to be exponential, unfortunately, but can we use this as a yeah. I mean, this is right. This is the bootcamp. This is the deep end. This is the, you know, those in the entrepreneurial world who know Andy Frisella 75 hard, two workouts a day and you have a meal plan and your drink, can you commit to this as seeing it that way, where you have a game plan now, and I'm wondering, like looking at it from a strategic perspective, I always talk about this paradigm of like reverse engineering, where you want to be, and setting yourself up to get there. And we didn't look at this as a possibility of what could happen now. Like we can have political fallout and we can have economic fallout and we can have, but like, but the political and the economic now coupled with you can go outside and you don't even know where you are or who you're talking to. And they can, and you can get sick from just having a conversation or being of help to someone else or being kind to somebody else. Right. Can actually cause you, God forbid death or protesting or protest. Right. Which, which we're going to see, unfortunately, just an exponential influx of cases in the next two weeks. And, and I tongue in cheek, you know, you know, I'm in South Florida and the weather for the last two weeks has been pretty awful. And I'm so thankful for that. I'm so thankful that the weather has been awful. Yes. I'm the mental health people need to be outside. We need to go run. We need to be in nature. We need to be, we don't need to be in the mall. Yes. I know the businesses need to, whatever it is. But like, I'm so thankful. And I know this sounds so hard and there'll be people who disagree with me, like stormed like crazy on Memorial day weekend. But I also know that we've had, I don't know, 1200 new cases yesterday or 2,500 new cases of COVID yesterday in the state of Florida. Wow. Right. And our protests has only started and our reopening only started really more so we can change ago. Right. So the duality again, I used that word a lot, but the duality is yes. We want freedom. Yes. We want businesses to grow. Yes. We want things to go back to normal, but it's not yet normal. And it's not a one size fits all of like, you know, something, they kind of happy. There's a ring. There's random kind of happy. There's a, there's a tropical storm brewing in the Gulf coast because like, we need to do more work to figure this out. It's not like, Oh yeah, we're going to do this slow opening and everything's go back to normal. But no, one's listening. No one's following directions. People are still partying to go inside and we have to go inside, literally not just inside. Like, and that's like, I love, especially if we narrate that going inside in this time, doesn't mean staying inside. It means go inside yourself and do the work. And there's no more excuse. I just, um, I discussed this with someone recently. I'm like, I'm probably never, ever, ever 99% short of like having to be actually physically touched by a doctor. I will never go to a primary care physician again in person. There's no need after this experience and going online to a doctor twice clicking set appointment, 17, late minutes later, the doctor showing up. And by the time from the time I clicked appointment set appointments to the time I returned back home from picking up her prescription was 45 minutes. Wow. I'm not going to go. There's no need for me to ever go to a primary care physician again in person.

Kim Schneiderman: 32:56

How someone going to listen to your heart through the computer, through the web? I mean, I don't know. I haven't thought about it.

Intro: 33:02

I need to do that this time, but right. But that, but I think we're learning that like certain diagnostic methods that have just been, because they're no longer necessary, if I'm not exhibiting right. This thing of like, we have to check your heart to make sure you don't okay, fine. Like I don't have asthma. I don't, you know, I do. Right. I know what I have. I know I don't have enough. And if there's a trust, if you start listening to your patients slash clients more, right. If you start trusting, right. And this is part of our medical, right. We are where we, as, as therapists are, you know, you and I probably see our clients more as client, you know, they see, we see them as clients, not patients, not, not patients. So therefore we're a consultant. We're not the end all be all expert. Right. That's where I think you and I are very similar with, right. Versus in the medical field, the medical model, we know what's right for you. You can't be an informed consumer. We're going to tell you, even if you did your research, we're still not going to trust you on the research you've done. Cause who are you that you found that on the internet? How can you, how dare you be an informed consumer, right. That's starting to change, I think with this a lot more.

Kim Schneiderman: 34:02

Yeah. I mean, I hope that I like while, while I think that technology offers lots of opportunity for innovation, I just hope that it doesn't, you know, that we don't lose that, that human connection of being in a job, you know, like that's so important. I wanted to say something about the spiritual, um, boot camp too, which is that spiritual boot camp doesn't mean pushing yourself to like do a million things. So, and you know, and I think that many people I've heard both friends and clients saying like, I'm just so overwhelmed. I can't, I can't, like I thought I would work on this. I can't, I can't do it. And, um, I think that's okay. I mean, this is about like your spiritual boot camp. Doesn't actually have to be an actual, you know, goal oriented workout. It can just be like feeling into your pain, getting in touch with, you know, not getting, you know, getting stuck there, but like really getting to know yourself and like feeling your frigging feelings, you know, um,

Intro: 35:21

You have to be task oriented. It doesn't have to be,

Kim Schneiderman: 35:23

You have to be task oriented. And I think that's, you know, that's sort of like as a society and I was, uh, sort of sharing this with someone recently, you know, we're so measured by our, by barnyard, our chief movements and our gains and not by our vulnerability and our inner growth, which is so hard to measure. I mean the only one that, you know, sometimes the only person that really gets that is yourself. I mean, usually those people that are closest to, you can say, wow, like you're handling things a little differently than you used to. I see. You know, I see. But usually it's, it's much more about how we feel about ourselves or how we show up in the world, how we feel about our lives. And, you know, I can just speak for myself that it was a real, you know, like everybody else, it was a real jolt when this whole thing happened. And I was in the middle of like a lot of stuff that I was, you know, had a lot of goals about. And, you know, after kind of like grieving these, um, my, uh, my, my, um, my, my agenda, my loss of agenda, I sort of just settled into the stillness and the everyday moment and of what this is and found, you know, found that I was actually able to hear my voice in a way that I hadn't in my, you know, listened to myself and way that I hadn't, um, before. And it kind of helped me find a new center in some ways. So I, I wrote, I wrote a blog on psychology today. I'm sitting on my couch, I find my Ruby slippers.

Intro: 37:16

Nice. Yeah. And I hear this from so many people, right. That, um, I was on a, uh, there's a great podcast episode with, um, Jesse Itzler and Sara Blakely, Sara Blakely, the creator of Spanx, a women's clothing company. So husband and wife, both are crazy amazing entrepreneurs. And they're talking about like on the Lewis, Howes, um, school of greatness podcast. And, um, he was talking about like at the beginning and he's like, this is going to be amazing. Like every week I'm going to write a new book and, and then I'm going to do this, and then I'm going to do this after week one. He's like, ah, yeah, that's going out the door. Like I remember like at the beginning, like, everybody's like, this is like a forced vacation. This is so amazing. Now I can clean my apartment and now I can do this. And now like, and you do see all these people right at the beginning, like, especially on social media, like, it was like, Oh, now I'm doing a home garden. Now I'm baking banana bread. Now I'm doing right now, the thing, right. Especially, I've seen it in New York with my friends in New York is the sourdough starters, right. Making their Saturday rates and how all this ingredients for sourdough bread is out. Banana bread was a few weeks ago. Right. Or growing their own seed legs are like, it's like constantly progressing. And I'm like, or don't care about any of that crap at all. And just go for a walk. Like I remember like seeing him, like, like, it was so incredible where like at a six o'clock on a, on a Tuesday night, my, everybody was out walking around and rain and I'm like, wow, that usually only like, even on a weekend. And I happen to live in a, in a, in a Sabbath observant Jewish community. Like even on, like, when everybody's walking on this, on Shabbat, on the Sabbath here, this is five times as many people that would be doing it. That even then I'm like, this is incredible. This is the S the Florida that I always wanted to see. I don't have to go to Boulder, Colorado to see that I'm finally seeing that here. And I'm thankful for that. You know? Um, the last couple of weeks it's been like, the weather's been awful, so I haven't seen it as much, but like, there's the silver linings, there's the blessings and all of this, like, just like, and I find myself like, no, no, no, don't keep my phone out when I'm running. I don't need to check. It's like, just listen to music, go for my walk, go for my run. I don't need to like, and it's hard. Cause like you said, like we're on the computer all day, digital technologies all day. One of the things I'm finding that has been very recharging for me and very restorative for me has actually been, not taking my one on one time, which I have blocked out, but actually leading more groups and workshops.

Speaker 3: 39:47

Hmm.

Intro: 39:49

And how I find them so much more energized in the time is going like this when I'm doing something like this for a group. And I didn't realize that before this timeframe. Right. And I'm like, wow, okay. So maybe one of the things I do need to focus on now is how do I get now in front of more people to bring more value post the sin scenario and make that more part of my career than just write the one on one therapy and start working more on groups and presentations and workshops. And that came out of me literally being on the screen three to five times a week now, teaching different things for different groups, for young professionals and young entrepreneurs, our age bracket. So that's like, so my, my thing now is by the time this is over, let's say by September, I'm going to literally go back and say like between April something and September 1st I literally did 350 online webinars I did. Right. Whatever, blah, blah. Right. And I can now make it as a, you know, as a cool fact in my head. I'm like, wow. Okay. That's pretty cool. So I was able to be in front of this many people able to help as many people. Wasn't just right. Obviously my clients were my clients and I love them, but I didn't just like, okay, now I'm done at the end of the day. Right. Right. You know, I'm going to sit and watch office reruns, which I do.

Speaker 3: 41:14

It's a good show. Right. Yeah.

Intro: 41:17

But I was able to add that to my repertoire and I've learned so much about myself and what I'm enjoying and where my energy, you know, if we want to get into the Enneagram stuff. Right. Of like what, you know, what do you do when you're fully at your best versus when you're responding from a stress point or when you're from a fear point or not. Right.

Kim Schneiderman: 41:35

Yeah. I mean, first of all, you're inspiring me cause I have not done a writing workshop, which is, I have one, I have two scheduled this month. Uh, stay tuned, look at my website or my Facebook page and you'll see the information. But, um, yeah, I've been more focusing on, um, I just been really busy with clients individually and doing some right of my own writing. Um, and also just keeping up, you know, I like for the first I've done, like today was day 49 of my, uh, meditation, like 10 minutes of meditation, which I've never been able like forever, I've been wanting to do meditation practice. Never could never do it. And um, so yeah, but I think, you know, the way I'm sort of looking at it, Jason, is that we are entering like the third trimester of like, of a rebirth, like of maybe possibly nine months, who knows, but you know, the third trimester and I know really, like for many of us are really difficult pregnancy, you know, and there are moments of like, you know, bliss and when we feel, you know, when times when we even feel like, you know, pregnant with possibility, um, and um, excited, you know, excited about the future, but you know, the, the pangs of, um, those payings and those, um, the queasy, all the queasy queasy, queasy times that we have, especially this week, you know, um, are all part of this process. And, you know, I hate to say it, but you know, no pain, no gain, like if we're going to grow, if we're gonna, if we're gonna, if we're going to rebirth ourselves, like we have to move through all of the feelings, you know, and, and just like also really appreciate those moments where we're like really jazzed up because we did a great webinar and, you know, wow, this is what I'm meant to be doing or a podcast, you know, that felt like, Ooh, it's spot on. I want to be doing more of this. So, um, all of that to make room for all of that, you know,

Intro: 43:47

Well, we can't become a diamond without millions of pounds of pressure on us. Right,

Kim Schneiderman: 43:51

Right, right.

Intro: 43:53

It's again, like now it's very much in our it's everywhere we go, this million pounds of pressure, we might've felt it. Or we might've realized yeah. There's something here, something there, this part of my life needs some improvement. But like, but I think we're seeing it in like, you know, especially for people who are like, I always like ask the question over the last couple of weeks, myself, like I'm alone. Right. So the only people I'm seeing and I just saw my family for the first time in the last couple of weeks since March. And we're now that was the end of may. Um, and they live 15 minutes away from me and we haven't seen each other in person until then, but like, it's like, wow, okay. So I'm alone. I'm by myself. I see my neighbors in the hallway or see them out when we do a lunch together, you know, I'm on Chabad or on the holidays though, the last couple of weeks, you know, with our socially appropriate distancing. But like, what would it be like if I had someone living with me right now? Right. Or, you know, so, and I have my couples and my families that I'm working with and live with the kids and my, whatever it is. So I'm always asking like, okay, like conscious of that space of like, I can just look it up, how I've been dealing this by myself living alone. And yes, it's isolating. Yes. It's a lonely. Yes. It's, you know, but I don't have to worry about like someone else's noise in the other room while they're trying to work. And then being on conference calls, I have to worry about my neighbor. Who's walking up and down the hallway, taking his calls, which, you know, not being mindful of everybody else working from home. Right. And thinking that the hallway is now that person's office space, but it's, um, but on the other side of the coin of people who are like come home and they're with families or they're with partners or they're with wherever people that take care of them and they're like, Oh, well maybe it would be better if I didn't have anybody around me, you know, it's like, there's, there's always the right. The duality and the, the grass is always greener, especially in this circumstance. And it's, again, it goes back to a script and a narrative and like our biases are being shown of, you know, well, why, why am I, am I really okay? Why am I really okay. Not being bothered by someone else's stuff right now.

Kim Schneiderman: 45:50

Right, right. Yeah. I mean, everybody, I think everybody's experience has its own, um, set of set of challenges, you know, um, except for maybe people that are, you know, like celebrities who live on their own little private islands. Um, but you know, who knows what's going on in their individual lives? Um, yeah. I think every life everybody's experiencing this, you know, has their own like insights and aha moments and challenges. And I also feel like I want to make sure that I don't, um, gloss over like the real challenges of people that are, that had preexisting serious, you know, depression and anxiety who are feeling isolated. And now this is compounding their isolation or we're in really difficult relationships. And this is compounding those relationships. I mean, all of this again is fodder for growth, right? I mean, it's all, especially if you're working with a therapist, everything is gonna come up. Anything that I, and I wanted also, like I knew I wanted to talk about this, you know, Being sort of a J young and leading therapist, you know, that shadow stuff. Uh, and I just wrote, wrote a blog about it on psychology today. Like our shadow is up, right. We're seeing we have an opportunity to sit with our own shadow and even like, again, individually and collectively, because you can't, you can't confront what you don't see. And if you can't see it, it's going to run you, you know? And so, and you explained just a quick overview for people. Who've never heard that phrase before the shot, like the shadow. Oh, right. So, so it was a young, an idea that we all have like a shadow side, like a part of us that, you know, for lack of a, you know, is sort of tend towards like, you know, parts of us that are like jealous or angry or resentful or, you know, angry, um, or like have evil thoughts from time to time. I know I have them when I watch the news. Um, but about a particular individual who I don't even know if I can call him solves that problem. Right. So, um, but we all have this part of ourselves that we don't want to look at. Cause it's like, yeah, that ugly part of ourselves that I don't want anyone I'm going to stub that under the carpet, I'm going to make sure that nobody sees it in my Facebook posts. You know, I'm going to just push and like, but, but like when we're triggered, bye bye, bye. You know what we say, the, or what we hear or other people, which is usually our biggest trigger, not shadow is going to be up, you know, or what we're or what we're not, or when we're not, when there's nobody around and we just have ourselves, there's, some of us can be our own worst enemies that it's going to be up. But if we can start to say like, rather than feel ashamed, like at the, you know, the bottom of all of this, we, and we don't want to look at our shadow is there's the fear of feeling ashamed. But if we can kind of understand, accept that everybody has this shadow, like everybody just got it and like be curious about it. And Neil's idea is that when we're not aware of our shadow, when we kind of want to repress all those ugly places, it runs us in our behavior. And we see it by the way. And some of the actions, I don't know if I can get political here of our president right now. I mean, it was very much run by a shadow that he can't see. And, but if we can sort of start to get to know it and be like, Oh, there you are jealousy. Yep. I know you let's look at what that's about. Oh, maybe they, you know, there's at, or like, Oh, you know, resentment. If we could start to really get to know these shadows, we can have a different relationship with them. There's usually, there's usually some deep childhood pain, either in visibility and lovability feeling, you know, um, inadequate inadequacy and not feeling wanted, not feeling worthy enough, not, you know, all of that, that's underneath it. And you can get to know that part of ourselves that was wounded back then. I mean, in ifs, there's like a really deep dive in to getting to know and hold and, um, under deeply under get that part of you so that it can be healed. Cause it's usually the ideas that like our child brains who were looking for love and attention or acceptance when they didn't get it, children think it's all about me. And that idea that it's all about me stay sort of stuck. It's like a, it's like a splinter, you know, a, a thought that becomes a splinter in your being and you don't know it's there and it gets triggered. And sort of, you know, one of the goals of ifs is to do the sort of psychic surgery that helps like get at that Flint or remove that splinter of thought,

Intro: 51:09

Right. Which is so powerful. And it's already the self awareness component of, of, of our growth and our healing and our relationship has to be there. Um, I gave a class last night for a bunch of young professionals. And, um, two nights before that I gave a class for a different group of young professionals. So the person who facilitated the group two nights ago, I said, Hey, by the way, if any of your people want to jump in on this, I do this every Wednesday night. Um, so if your people from the Tuesday night class that I gave one to jump out and feel free to do so it was like a mixture of two different communities. And like I found out afterwards that like one of the people was like hitting up like, like five different people, direct message on xray. You can do the private messaging on zoom. I'm like overwhelmed this other one person, like completely lack of self awareness, complete lack of like boundaries, complete lack of what I'm like, Oh my God. Like, why? Like this is great. This is a great learning experience. And I'm like, I wish you told me, like not, and I'm like, why would I have kicked them out? Or would I have used that as an opportunity to be like, Hey, let's do some self awareness here. Let's do some right. Cause the first reaction would be like, let's kick that person out of our lives. Right. Which is our visceral response to everything. Especially like on Facebook. Well, I'm gonna unfriend them. I'm going to block them. I'm going to write or I'm going to teach them what they're wrong about. Cause that ever works. Right. And that's a whole nother episode, which we can have, like, you know, you're never going to teach anybody anything that they know that they're already not willing to want to learn. Right. But, but the idea of like using these moments. So I reached out to the organizer of that other group and I'm like, let me tell you what happened. And here's what I think we need to do as a possible. And the person's like, Oh, well, if I knew that I would kick them out of my group, I'm like none. I'm not. We have a tremendous opportunity here to invite all of those people to a workshop on self awareness, on boundaries, on appropriate communication on. Right. And let's use it as like, if you're not getting what you want out of the attempts that you're doing, why keep doing it over and over again, let's let's are you open and willing to learn how to do something differently? And then now we have a conversation set up to how to brainstorm that and to actually make that into an actual pain workshop for as opposed to like the media, do you follow up? They're different there. I can't believe they did that. They can't be, they offended my friend. Yes. They offended my friend. I told my friend that they should have told me right away, they should have like, I'm upset at my friend that made it tell me right away that this was happening. Am I, but it was her class. And I'm like, yeah, ANZ, but it was your class. I didn't want to bother you. You, someone felt unsafe. Right. That's more important to me. So we can use it as a pivot to now, like, are you open to having a dialogue around that? And I think that's the first step to self awareness. Is, are you willing to have a dialogue? Are you willing to see your shadow? Are you willing to be, to hear a different perspective? And everybody out there needs to ask themselves this question, like what maybe you can ask a better state of better than I can is like, what are you not willing to hear in the regards of feedback about yourself, from the people around you, whether they're incredibly close to you or people that you meet in pass about their judgments about you or how you might come off, that might be beneficial to you in helping you get more of what you want, especially in these types of settings. Right? Where in group social settings, we're now we're being isolated. Now we really want to connect. Right. But like, you know, what are you, what would be the last thing that you would want to hear about yourself from someone that you might not even realize that you're putting yourself out there in a certain way, or that you're acting in a certain way that you would be like, this would be absolutely mortifying and horrible. And like, I completely know this, not in alignment with my values that you might be right. Split about

Kim Schneiderman: 54:45

The shadow, for sure. Whatever they're afraid of would reveal the shadow.

Intro: 54:50

Right? Yeah.

Kim Schneiderman: 54:52

Like if that happened, people wouldn't like me and I feel ashamed and would bring up my nerdiness. Right.

Intro: 54:57

But yet they are probably doing all those things that are causing those things to happen.

Kim Schneiderman: 55:01

Oh, for sure. Right. For sure. It's always, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. I mean, so many people like can't see their own shadows and you know, neither can we, right, right. I mean, I try, but,

Intro: 55:16

Well, you've told me long enough to see all my shadow stuff. So I'm expecting you to give me the 34.2 minimum 34 point bullet list of all the things that I haven't seen since you've known me. So, you know,

Kim Schneiderman: 55:28

Know

Intro: 55:32

Our last get together was over sushi. So yeah. At your booklet at your bookstore. Yeah. So let's, let's wrap it up with that. Right. So you have this really awesome book. Um, you know, Jeff, please share with, with everybody listening, just a quick understanding of the book, what, you know, what you want them to get out of it by actually going through the steps in the book. It's really, really awesome. I've referenced it in with, with, with clients. I have one copy. Actually. I, I ended up with two copies, um, that night at, uh, books. Was it books and books down in, in Miami when you were here? Um, yeah. So, you know, what, what can buy someone getting this book? What can they hope to get out of the work that you're challenging them to do?

Kim Schneiderman: 56:12

Um, I think it can help give them a new lens on, um, and who they are, um, Where they're going and,

Speaker 4: 56:27

Um,

Kim Schneiderman: 56:31

And what's sort of getting, and like kind of like what's getting in the way

Speaker 4: 56:37

Of, of them kind of

Kim Schneiderman: 56:40

Growing into the kind of person that they imagined that they would imagine themselves to want to be. I mean, the book itself is, I mean, th the idea of the book is that, like, again, I said before, like every life has an unfolding story. So one of the things that I do is I have people start by looking at the current chapter. Like, I'll ask them, you know, imagine that your life is a novel. Um, what's the title of the current chapter. And describe it, give it, you know, give me sort of a chapter summary in the third person narrative. Right. Which gives them a little bit again, that distance and I'll, I might, and I even have them like, use questions like, um, that authors use when they're, um, writing a book, like, you know, all authors use, like do a character sketch to get a sense of where the character that creatives is going. So I have them do that with themselves, like, who is this character? What do they want, what's getting in the way and what are sort of the, the stakes involved, whether they get there or not. I also have them. Um, and that really the important, by the way, I wanted to say this, especially right now, a bookending a difficult, like a time in your life is really important because sometimes when people get depressed, it's because they confuse the current chapter for the entire plot line of their story. It's really important to say, and, and giving gaming at a title can say so much. Cause then you're like pointing to the themes, right? Whether it's whether the current chapter is, you know, embodied crucible or transition and, or, you know, viral spiral versus viral survival, you know, uh, you know, today we're, you know, cocoon from cocoon to butterfly, you know, whatever it is, it tells you so much about your mindset. And sometimes people start with one title and then if they're doing it, they'll come to another and they'll be like, Oh, and it, what right with the writing does in itself is it becomes a mirror, right? To your own, just like an art, like anything that's creative, it becomes a lens of looking at yourself of your inner world that you can't see on the, in the, when you're actually looking into a physical mirror. And the, and then it sort of like using the architecture of a story, which is the idea that there's a conflict. Like every, I sort of normalize conflict, like every story has a conflict. And that conflict is the friction, the friction between the protagonist and antagonist, which could be like a challenging, you know, which is which I kind of define more liberally as the force in your life that is stretching you to grow, to stretch and grow beyond your comfort zone. So it could be a person, it could be a stage of life. It could be COVID. And I have people look at like, like what, what supporting resources do they have in their lives? Like what strengths, you know, what strengths does this character already possess? Where are the areas where they need to develop? And then I actually use dialogues. Like I have people dialogue with different parts of themselves, you know, with an M and their guided dialogues so that they can kind of like, they can see that they're fierce just trying to protect them. And they can either talk back to fear or they can also dial up with a part with, uh, with what I call a growing edge, a character trait that they want to develop, like courage, you know, my dialogue with courage and have courage, tell them how to make the next step. Um, so I use all kinds of like perspective, bending, writing exercises that help people, they just look at their lawyer, like kind of get a new lens on their, on their story, um, and sort of Lee. And so they leave, they're sort of looking at like reframing conflict, cause like a lot of times people do, they don't like conflict, but it's, you know, it's an, it's an inevitable part of life. It's an important part of the story without it character wouldn't grow, wouldn't evolve. So it's looking at how can you grow through that and be in charge of even though, you know, cause we, even though we can't, we can't control what happened. Like the, we can't, we can't control, um, our plotline in some respects, right? Like things happen sometimes COVID, you know, all of this stuff, like we can't control it, but we can act, well, we can take charge of the narration of our story by sort of looking at like the ways that we want to, that we are going to respond to the, to the shifting tides of our storyline. And, um, and so in that way we can feel empowered. Um, and so people usually come through it having, having gone through sort of this sort of, um, what I call a character development, workout, you know, character development bootcamp, or they're really looking at that challenge. And by the end, but towards that resolution, they have like a new perspective on their, on their story. Yeah. Oh, and I also run, I have a daily, I just want to say little plug. I also have two courses on the daily own, which are only like$15 and they're 10 weeks written courses during your own time. Um, one's called reframe your narrative about challenging relationships. And the other one is called, um, this was their title, not mine, but it's funny. Uh it's it's um, it's your fault? Not mine.

Intro: 1:01:54

It sounds very much like what we're going through today's and day in time. And the suddenly getting the name of the book is step out of your story, writing exercises three frame and transform your life and put obviously the link to that in our show notes. Um, w and if they want to reach out to you directly, where can they do that?

Kim Schneiderman: 1:02:12

You can go to my website, step out of your story.com. There's like a little context section. They can also, um, go to my Facebook page. Um, whether they're, I have a step out of your story, Facebook page, um, they can also find me on the psychotherapy and spirituality Institute website. So yeah,

Intro: 1:02:35

Pretty easy. Pretty easy to Kim. Thank you again for spending, spending some time with us. And I know there were so many things and yeah, guys, like, go, go treat yourself to this, to this book, treat yourself to one of the online workshops. Thanks for listening to the you winning life podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it. If you subscribe so you don't miss an episode, you can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser, LMF D.