Ep.54- Donita Beth Wheeler: The Mama Bear Cancer Survivor

Donita “Mama Bear” Wheeler is a survivor of many cancers including triple negative breast cancer.  During that brave battle, she beat the odds of a 1% survival rate. Her experiences living through, between, and after cancer diagnosis has made Donita an incredible voice on survivorship, facing fear, and the many topics that cancer families face.

A former first grade teacher, Donita has a thirst for knowledge that drives her to understand all facets of survivorship, prevention, and the concept of facing fear.  She shares her knowledge during a weekly podcast and through her social followers.  The Mama Bear name suits Donita as she is protective of her “cubs,” all who are inspired by her story.

The original Mama Bear nickname comes from her deep love for her husband, Whitney, and her two grown sons.  Donita enjoys speaking on subject of survivorship and cancer coaching overall to large audiences globally.

Donita is a contributing writer to "The Lemonade Stand Project" book.

Jason Wasser, LMFT is a Licensed Therapist & Certified Entrepreneur Coach

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Transcript

Jason Wasser, LMFT: Speaker 1: 0:00

This is the You Winning Life podcast, your number one source for mastering a positive existence. Each episode we'll be interviewing exceptional people, giving you empowering insights and guiding you to extraordinary outcomes. Learn from specialists in the worlds of integrative and natural wellness, spirituality, psychology, and entrepreneurship. So you too can be winning life. Now here's your host, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified neuro emotional technique practitioner and certified entrepreneur coach.

Donita Bath Wheeler: 0:37

All right, Hey everybody. Welcome back. Today's guest is cancer coach to Donita Beth Wheeler. She is also the host of the Mama Bear podcast. She is a cancer survivor and an incredible, incredible person who I've gotten to know recently. Donita, thank you so much for hanging out with us today. Well, absolutely glad to be gone. Awesome. So I know that there is so much going on in the world right now with this pandemic and right off the bat, I'm finding that I'm hearing from people in the medical community, that people are afraid to be going into their doctors and into the hospitals, uh, for any other type of checkups. And one of the things that I want to start off with is kind of like a public service announcement type thing. Um, what are right off the bat before we get into your story, but I want to like just heavy front-loaded what are some of the things that people should be looking out for as signs and symptoms, um, right off the bat that they absolutely completely should be going into a doctor despite what's going on in the world right now?

Donita : 1:43

Well, I think if you're specific to cancer, um, I'm sure that you are on a plan with your doctor right now. That's, that's what I'm understanding that most people are on pretty tight with their doctor. And so they probably more than in the past have the ability. Cause when I was going through treatment, I had a little card that if I needed to go to the emergency room that put me at the front of the list, if you will, if I went in with my card, they isolated me immediately. They got me eggs. They knew I was immune compromised and they do that. So it's my understanding that right now they have, the oncologists are having pretty heavy conversations with their patients and they have a protocol to follow. So it's, I'm assuming that you probably had a protocol and if you don't then I think I would definitely call ahead and use the telemedici. That's available right now. Cause I know in Washington state where I am telemedicine pretty popular right now. So thank you. Cause I really wanted to make sure that like people know that there are so many options and before we get into your story, I want people to not to be afraid that if they do need to take those necessary medical steps, there is incredible online options. Right now, there are actually many platforms that are actually covered by your insurance. So I know if you are a blue cross blue shield, um, person, if you're network that you can use Teladoc and they're weaving all copays for anything to Teladoc platform. So for people out there who are like afraid to go to a doctor and doctor's office, please leverage a network, the online resources that we have now. So let's talk a little bit about you, right? You're you're, you're originally a South Florida person, right? And now you're on the West coast. I lived in South Florida for 15 years. I'm originally I was born in South America. Um, I lived there till I was about three and then I grew up in El Paso, Texas, um, lived in Dallas for 20 years and then moved to South Florida for 15 years and then have been on the West coast for a little while now, a couple months. And um, you know, I have had cancer five times. Um, I've been, um, breast cancer, ovarian cancer, two kinds of skin cancer, skin cancer non-melanoma um, malignant and melanoma skin cancers. So I am, I've had 11 surgeries and I did caretaking for my mother in law who passed away from on high check-in's lymphoma. And we were with her for about a year, um, about seven, eight months. So we just dropped everything left Florida and moved to Tennessee. And I guess, so I've really been gone from Florida about two years because we did spend a year in Tennessee and then come back, put our house, fix our house again, put it back on the market. Please go buy my house in Hollywood. And um, we, we, um, came back out here. So we picked here. I think I told you, we, we chatted earlier. I told you my dad was from the West coast and I really just loved the West coast and wanted to get back to so yeah. So what You go into this this five times and I know I'm one of them, it's like a 1% survival rate. Yeah. That was the triple negative breast cancer. It was almost 12 years ago and protocols a little bit different now than it was then, then it was a little bit more of a death sentence than it is now. Now it's up to about 20%. Um, there's stand for chance. Um, which, uh, triple negative just means that the three hormones that are, I don't know specifically, it's three that it's, it's the hormones that's non receptive to hormone. So it's not a hormonally driven cancer. It's a like down and dirty cancer and it comes about, um, you know, it could be environmental. I smoked. Um, so I've always blamed it on that. I don't know that that's what caused it. We don't have any family history. We don't have anything that would have, um, genetically given it to me. So I just kind of go with that and say, you know, don't smoke, but I don't know that that's what caused it. But, um, you know, the, the treatment was pretty, pretty tough and it was, uh, I just needed that 1% because I'm that person, you know, like, Oh, only 1% of the population gets it like with COBIT I'm not being sarcastic or anything, but I probably won't get it because it's very popular. So you only do the unpopular things right. More challenging The trends, but yeah, the word so sorry, are you one of those people that like kind of took like the more challenging things all throughout your life? Is that kind of Now my tools seem to be thrown into that it's I guess I'm non-competitive and the spirits seem maybe a little bit more, so I'm like, okay, I'm taking it up a notch for sure. So 1% rate. So one of the things that you and I discussed in our, the first time we met was, um, the modality neuro emotional technique that I do. Right. And, um, it's a mind body protocol that came out of chiropractic, but a lot of therapists have been using it for the last many years. And they've been doing some insane research using this modality through Jefferson medical school to treat and heal the posttraumatic stress from cancer, uh, patients and cancer survivors. And we know that like, just because that someone might be in remission doesn't mean that the stress and the trauma doesn't live on with them. And we found that within three to five sessions of using this modality, um, that not only are we having the people who take the, you know, who went through the protocol, feel radically, radically, better decreasing the symptoms.

Jason: 7:02

It's not a removal of their symptoms, but we also know that the brain changed and we have pre and post, uh, functional MRI scans. So I'm really curious to know, like, I, you know, I know so many people that have gone through so many traumas and we all like to think of ourself at some level as a strong person. What is it? Okay. If you share a few moments of like, what was that original moment of diagnosis, like in that experience right after that for you? Because I know a lot of people have gone through this and a lot of people unfortunately, are going to go through this to know that what they might be feeling and what it might be like for them in those initial moments, in those initial days and weeks.

Donita : 7:39

I think when I was first diagnosed, like when I, when I went in, I had been struggling for a while with feeling very tired, feeling, very emotional, wondering what was going on with me. I thought, you know, I had just turned 40. So I thought, well, maybe this is 40. Maybe I just don't, you know, things aren't, aren't going well for me in my forties, I couldn't kick it. I couldn't get my energy levels up. I tried like, you know, all the logical things. Um, so when I went to the doctor, I was sitting next to this lady and she was like, I think, I think I'm going to be diagnosed with cancer. And I was like, okay, first of all, hi, nice to meet you. And second of all, wow, that was a lot for a second sentence, knowing you. I said, well, why do you, and then in my typical-ness, why I'm called mama bear, I grabbed her hand and I said, let's just have a moment. Um, let's I need you to calm down a little bit. Let's get your heart rate down, let's get your, your nerves settled. Let's kinda calm down. And it turns out she was diagnosed with cancer that day, that day. And so was I, and so it was, um, when I got in the car, well, when I w I don't know if you know the procedure, what they do is they go in and they do a, um, like a mammogram first, which is the, where they smush it and take pictures. And then when they find something in there, they'll come back and they say, okay, we found that you may have dense breast tissue. We're going to do a ultrasound. So they come in and they put the goo all over. You, it's warm. It's nice. And they go, what? So she went like right over and she goes, Oh, and then I was like, Oh, that didn't sound good. And you could tell it was a, uh, it was innate. Like, she didn't mean to do it. She, you could tell it was an accident. And so I didn't say anything. And I was like, and she, and she just kind of very serious and kind of looked really start pushing really hard. And finally, I was like, are you looking for something? And she said, um, I, yeah, I need to find what I saw when I first came on. And I said, okay, well, it was, I think it was like right here. And I moved the thing down a little bit and she found it. She said, we're going to have to have to do a biopsy. So they do the biopsy right there. They make you wait for like, and it's not, they make you wait. They're not like being mean and saying, Oh my gosh, what can I, how uncomfortable can I make these people? It's more that that's the procedure. So you have to wait and you wait and you wait in the cold waiting room with the guru still on you, and it's not warm anymore. And you, um, you know what I have, sorry about that. And I, uh, you know, you, you sit there and you wait and, you know, like you instinctively just know. And so they did the, the biopsy was really late in the afternoon, like five o'clock. And, um, they came back and they said, we're going to have to call you tomorrow morning with the results, the radiologist it's too late in the afternoon. And so I got home and I didn't say much to my family cause I just thought, wow. But I knew, and I w in a way was almost a relief because then I understood why I was feeling the way I felt like I, I had been battling cancer the whole time. So that's why I was so tired. And it was nice to know. But then once that passed, once the feeling of, okay, I know what's going on now past, then the fear crept in, and my kids were little. They were, they're not tiny. They were in eighth and 10th grade, but it was a summer and, or we were going into the summer and they would be going into those grades. But it was, um, you know, you just take pause and you think, Oh, I I've got to live. Like I can't not live. So that was kind of, for me, it was kind of like, in hindsight, I just, like, I just had a book come out called bear myself. And, um, it's my story, including like my suicide attempt and things like this. Like I went dark and deep for a long time and people are like, you're so brave. You're so strong. You did all these things. I'm like, this is 12 years out. People, 12 years, lots of therapy, 12 years. And you know, like several failed relationships, not personal, like romantic relationship, but friend relationships and just, you know, lots of stuff in between the first diagnosis and today. So yeah, there's the stigmas

Jason: 11:54

That have come up, right? So we have this like physical side of things that you were going through and having to get tested and how you were feeling emotionally and energetically and those things. But the mental health side of it, it's one of those things that like, people really don't get the intensity of what's going on. And on one side people might be, and tell me if this has been your experience, but from the friends that I know that have gone through it, it's like either people are like over compassionate, right. In over sympathetic and like very doting, but to the point where it takes away a lot of the person's empowerment, or they're kind of like, I don't want to talk about it. I want to ignore it as if like nothing has ever happened. Yeah.

Donita : 12:32

Oh yeah, no, I had belts and I deal better with the overbearing people because you know, you can hug them. And they great thing about overbearing people is their time span is very typically short because they're nervous and they, they do it quickly. Um, but it is constant. And I was okay, ish with that, but it was the, I don't want to have anything to do with you part that threw me completely for a loop because that's not the kind of friend that I was used to having. And that's, I, I mean, I've talked about it before. This is not a new thing that I've talked about, but my roommates from college, they're just like, kind of bailed on me. And it wasn't because they were being mean or because they met, they couldn't handle it, but it took me years to figure that out. And it was very, So what are some tips based on, right? If someone is a friend to someone going through this, what are some of the tips right off the top of your head that you would say, right. If you're uncomfortable, if you're afraid, whatever, what, like, what's some, what are some thoughts that you can share with them to say, like, here's how you can handle this for your friend and be there for your friend. I want to contact the spouse. That's in charge of everything, because if me, I was on my back and out. So I had no idea really what was going on after my, you know, the chemo treatments. Um, so you might want to see, like, you know, don't wait to do something, do something. If the child is standing on the curb and it's obvious that no, one's there to pick them up, bring the child home. If you know, it looks like they, if you know that their favorite cake is, you know, key lime pie, make feline pie and leave it on the count. I believe it outside. And give them a little text that says, Hey, it's outside, go put it inside. Um, you know, talk to them when they want to talk. If they don't feel like talking or they don't bring it up, you know, just say, Hey, I know you had a treatment. We can talk about it when it's comfortable for you or whatever, acknowledge it. Don't ignore it, but don't push it. You know, it's that fine line of, um, like a friend of mine had a hurt. She had one of the cold caps and the other friends went and got the dry ice every time. And that was a huge relief for her. So, you know, just little things that you don't think of, maybe hiring a maid service to come in and clean the house. Um, maybe take the dry cleaning in one day and have all that done, you know, pre cooked some meals. If you cook dinner for your family, you made me cook it for theirs, put it in a freezer, particular, put directions written on it and then keep it in your freezer and just pop it over, you know, because they're going to go through times that the patient's going to go through times where they're going to say, yes, I'd be weak. I need it. I want that. I need that. I please think you're out. And then they're going to go through times when they want to feel strong. And so when they want to feel strong and then go have coffee with them or do, but if they say my biggest thing was I not supposed to drink? I mean, I don't have like a reason not to, but other than it can bring cancer back. And so when I'm not drinking, my friends are like, aren't, you can just have one. And I'm like, I can't just have one. I can't do that chemo again. You know, like, or my favorite thing is when people say you done with your chemo, are you done with your radiation? They're like, Oh, you're on time. You're like, what? That's all over. Nothing happened. Move on. Nothing to see. I just started, I just started my, my, um, survivor's ship. So, you know, how do you want me to, how do you want me to, um, just, it's just crazy how, how people, people do act. But I think because cancer is so cool uncle popular right now, people have come a long way to, you know, and one thing somebody did for me is when they brought me the food, they included the recipe, which was really a nice thing. Like, you know, cause my kids were like, I liked that, you know, you don't have to have the, you don't have the brain power to say who brought that? Where's the recipe, let me call them and ask them, you know, that kind of thing. Of course this was 12 years ago before Pinterest, you could Google everything for sure.

Jason: 16:25

Sure. Yeah. So it's, it's the support system, thankfully is growing right. It's 2020 right now. And we definitely want to allow, you know, the positiveness right. Of what people are doing out there, all these amazing resource resources and organizations, but you're doing something incredibly unique. You have become a cancer coach. So tell us about that. What is that? Because right. Coaching, you know, people, people know my love hate into a belief about coaches and coaching. And I just put a post the other day about, um, I got bombarded somehow on my file. My Facebook, there was three different advertisement, become a coach for$25 in 16 hours. Right. Go figure. But I know you're doing something so unique and so special. So like what, what, what a got you to wanting to do that. And then let's talk about like some of those experiences that you've had

Donita : 17:19

Well, got me to do. It was the, the, I was working in a yoga studio. I loved that experience. It was a wonderful experience, but I was getting paid like$10 an hour. And I went to college and I raised my kids and I'm an educator at heart. I taught first grade and I come from a long line of educators. And I just, I just thought deep in my heart that I had to do more. I had to do more to help other people. So I felt very lonely and scared and sad. I didn't want to give my feelings to my family when I was going through, because I was just going to add to their anxiety and the things that they were feeling. So I kind of kept all that inside where I kind of wished I had somebody that I could talk to. It was a little bit neutral that didn't defend my friends when they were like, you know, Oh, they didn't mean to hurt your feelings. Um okay. But you know, like somebody who's just there and kind of understands what's going on. And so that's between the yoga, yoga studio and I'm with you with the coaching thing. I like my friend of mine calls it cancer doula. And I was like, Oh yeah, I like that word better. Yeah. It's clever. And I, and I thought there's so many clever names now for coaches and coaching. And, and it's funny because you and I met through Mike, who is my COO. So he runs all the operations, everything for a mama bear. And I've been telling him like, you know, how do we get away from the mainstream coach thing? So, you know, I want to be there for people. I want to do this because this grew from my heart. This didn't grow from my pocket book. And so, I mean, sure many on the side is great. Will I make a fortune, a book? Probably not. Everybody has a book now. Um, you know, just, just, you know what I mean? Like it's, it's heartfelt. And what I want to do is eventually have like, centers that you can go to maybe, you know, in your recovery, regardless of where you are, any need that you might have physically, emotionally, if you're nutritionally, you know, things like that, anything that you might need, I would like to have available at this particular location and have them nationwide, possibly worldwide. Cause my nephew is going just finished chemo in New Zealand. So I would love to have a, yeah. You know, how they have the Ronald McDonald house, something like that, the mama bear house. So the mama bear den. So, you know, that's my ultimate goal. Um, I got a long way to go, but you know, I really have a big goal in mind. Um, and I did it too, you know, I'm not young, so, but I, we were joking the other day. And in fifties now is, you know, really, really still quite good. I mean, I, I plan to live to a hundred, so I got another, I got another 40 whatever years to get all this done. And one of the things that I really enjoy hearing you say is that you have this much bigger vision and there's a brand that comes along with this. And the more you talk about it, the more you, you said, like while I'm very far away from it, but the more you talk about this and, and I really want this to be, um, something that impacts everybody out there that's listening to this is that If you have an idea, you can

Jason: 20:23

Keep it to yourself. Because our goal is to find like minded people who are sharing like-minded ideas and you're going to find partners in this process, right? So the more we talk about what we love and what we want to put out in the world, you might find someone who says, I'm incredibly passionate about that. I can throw some money. I don't have the time to get involved, but let me throw some money at you to help you get this done. Right. So, so I'm hoping that like, the more you talk about this, the more you, the more you put it out there, that if you guys know anybody in the world, that's listening to this or will listen to this, that if there's someone out there who is a passionate supporter of helping people going through this experience to reach out to Dina and say like, Hey, like I want to get involved. Like how can we make this happen? And I really love the idea of being kind of like a wholesale experience of like, you can get all these things taken care of it,

Donita : 21:12

One place for you. And I would love to yeah. Include like a, like a therapist like yourself, you know, like somebody that's had the broad spectrum that, that has more than just one point of view. And, and like, you know, all of the, I would love to have a thank you for that shout out. I would love to have like a, uh, a condo building, you know? Cause I think that we're going to have a few extras come, come in and kind of build and made it multigenerational where you can drop your parent off in memory care, drop your kid, a daycare, run downstairs to the organic store, pick up your, know your pack, the vitamins, and you know, like get going onto your job. And maybe you have a media room in your house because you work from home. So, you know, just, and you can go up to your floor and it all be in one building or bridge over to the other building, you know, like these in my husband's real estate. So become what we talked about, these ideas all the time. And I really, I feel like very strongly that at one point in time, it will happen. So, you know,

Jason: 22:11

Well, you're talking about intentional living and intentional living communities. And I know there's a whole world out there and experts who are about that. Like how do you create a community where it's around the like-minded shared vision and philosophy and approaches and, and, and it becomes something where everything is onsite and you might go out for a job or whatever right off site. But like, everybody's kind of collaborating with a like minded thing. So to have that as an intentional community, for people who are going through this specific experience is very cool. And if something that we're going through right now that everything is moved digitally and we've all had a pivot very quickly with what's going on. So the world, even though we had social media and technology, but starting like end of March and all through this month of April, everything is online. And, you know, I don't know if, when we were talking the other day for the first time, I don't know if I shared this with, but I'm never going to go back to a private practice medicine doctor, primary care physician again in person.

Donita : 23:09

Yeah. There's no worries.

Jason: 23:11

And, and I, and I have my, my I've a family member. My uncle is a family practice, private practitioner. Right. But I, and I have friends who are like, I'm never going to do it again. Like I, if I can go online, wait 12 minutes for someone to pop on. And from the time I push the button to, to be on hold for an appointment to the time I pick up a potential prescription is 45 minutes door to door, right. Round trip, starting that process to coming back home, took me 45 minutes. Then I'm never, ever, ever, you're going to be going to a practitioner in person again, if I don't have to, for any type of actual physical exam that takes place.

Donita : 23:48

Yeah. That thing where you walk in and you just put your, like you do your body like this, and it does your blood pressure and your, all your everything. And you're like, Oh, okay, interesting. How, like, everybody's like, I can't work with zoom. I can't do this. But yet in a pandemic, even my mother who's 80 years old is on her zoom calls tomorrow for nine hours. I was like, Oh, so even you sound technology.

Jason: 24:07

Exactly. And funny enough, if someone wants to, like, we talk about like, the word that I've been using a lot with everybody is the pivot. If someone is really good in technology and you know where you're, where you're right. Sell Florida. So, you know, we have a, a significant senior citizen population. If you can find a way to get in front of five, 10, 15, 20 senior citizens, or, you know, someone in that population, you say, give me all of your friends numbers, and I'm going to personally call each one. And for 20 bucks 30, whatever it is$10 15, I'm make an arbitrary number. I am going to teach them how to use all of their technology within an hour. Someone is going to make a killing right. Unused array. Or that's like, there's so many things right now that people can do when they're saying, Oh, I'm a victim to all this. Oh, this sucks. Yes. This completely completely sucks. And yes, people are working in certain industries have gotten right. Completely wiped up, but now's the time to pivot and be creative. And I think the story of healing, um, and I, and I, and I'm assuming, you'll agree with me, this story of healing through anything is about how creative can you get in the time of what you're going through?

Donita : 25:15

Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I painted my entire inside of my house when I was recovering. Like, that's how I recovered, but I'm not I'm I'm I'm we talked about this Ironman, Ian F J or something like that. So I was like, but I'm very introverted, but I binge on extrovertness, which is funny, which is like, but it's funny. Like I I'm okay. Being alone until or not. And then I'm like, okay, I'm done. Let's do something fun.

Jason: 25:42

Right. And as an ENF J eraser. So if people don't know what we're talking about, we're talking about the Myers Briggs personality test. It's a really, really cool, insightful way to kind of see some of your character traits and how you handle things and how you look at the world. Um, and, and the E is for an extrovert, but it's funny like you, and I think are very similar. We're actually probably ambiverts right. We have that both introvert and extrovert where we need both, right. We need our chill time and whatever. And then we can like break up the energy, recharging our batteries from being out and out in public. Um, but I think like people on now, like, especially with what's going on, there's a duality of pressure with the COVID experience on one side, there's all these things of like, you have all this time to go tackle these things. You've never tackled before you should be working out and you should be eating healthier and you should be learning a new language and you should be learning how to bake. And you should have, you should not have been Instagram and posting all this stuff and build a following. And the other side it's like, geez, like, okay, just like, it's okay to like, take a nap and relax.

Donita : 26:40

You can just have an extra cup of coffee and you, but you can change your slippers to go dim your commute downstairs. That's what you can do, you know,

Jason: 26:48

In my work attire right now. I mean, like, and it's funny, cause I had an immediate pivot within 24 hours to make a decision of, to pull my practice fully online. And it really like, thankfully there was no flaws or no snafoos with it. And 99% of my clients like were like, yeah, that's fine. Like not an issue. And day one, I wore a polo day two. I was in a D a T shirt. And I I'm, I'm joking with everybody that are talking to like, Oh my gosh, like, you know, what's it like to not have to go to your office? I'm like, I haven't worn pants and almost five weeks now I'm wearing shorts. But like, like I literally haven't worn pants in five weeks and it's kind of like, yeah, I'm in Miami, so it's great. But, but I'm literally, everything is stripped away and the wheel connection of how can we be of service to each other? How can we be a value to each other? How can we uplift each other is really the most utmost importance. And I think that rings true when anybody is going through a medical emergency as well.

Donita : 27:51

Oh yeah. And definitely like with medical emergencies too, you know, you, you eat and now you actually have the hammock gut, you know, the support of the telomeres and the things that at your fingertips, more so than you did before all of this. So, you know, before you had to get maybe uncomfortable and get dressed. And like, I know, I know when I went in for my knee, my shot, my stomach, I think it's called me blasted that they give you that shot in your stomach. I know to, for me to get in that car and I lived on North Lake and I had to drive to Johnson. So it was, it wasn't that far, it was like under three miles, but I just thought I had to go to 200 miles to get that shot and it, you know, and I think it's a good, I think it's a good thing because I think the, I think stripping down to your no pants, you know, shorts, um, is there's nothing wrong with that. I think the facade that you put on every day that you get dressed in you, you're this different person at work than you are at home is probably, I don't know. You, you can tell me here. It seems like a lot of struggle. You know, like now you can kind of be yourself and you can adjust accordingly in a positive way, like a, a growing way, you know, like, you know, um, like on a zoom call, it's funny. Cause you're like, I'm ready early. I'm like, I'm not, I still gotta put my mascara on. And you're like, I'm in a hat. I'm like, I'm a girl.

Jason: 29:09

I still haven't gotten out the door yet. But like at the time

Donita : 29:14

I still have to do it, but it was funny. Cause when I was doing it, I was like, Oh, that's fine. You can't see that close up. You know what that means? Like, it's, you can't see so close to your face because the camera's right there. So you have to, so you're, so I'm a little bit more forgiving of myself, you know, like, Oh my hair doesn't look that great, but nobody looks at great right now. So the competition level of, you know, that, that facade of having to, to keep it together and be something that you're not really, that you, that you do on a day in and day out basis makes your insights so tight and, and make sure your body works so much for things that really aren't achieving that much. I personally think that all that good energy can go towards healing like now. And I just saw like the today show, they did something on sleep. And I remember I used to get about three hours of sleep because I was that mom, I don't know if you've seen Reese weather spins a little fires everywhere, but like I was that mom, I was the one with all the calendar from hell, the mom who had everything organized. I was at every event, I was like, the mom, they were like, Oh God, what's she going to ask for now? Here's jams. You know, like that was me. That was my full time job was being like in the middle of everything. And then when I got sick and I was tip, taken to my back for, you know, six months in the bed, I realized that I'm really not that important, but I'm important to the, to who I need to be important to. And that for me, so to me, this isolation is the third time, the third time I've had to do this. So I'm like, yeah, sure, okay, whatever I got this under control, but it's interesting when the whole world does it with you. And you're like, and I've seen some memes that say like, well now maybe people with terminal illness or with, um, what's it called when you, when you have it all the time, not terminal recurrent or chronic chronic. That's what I was looking for chronic illness. Maybe you'll understand. Now maybe when you say, I'm sorry, my, my whatever's acting up. I can't go. Maybe the understanding level would be a lot higher and the pressure to, to be something that you're not, while you're sick, maybe that'll be a little bit better too.

Jason: 31:09

The gentleness, right? If we want to be playful with the terms or it's the patients and the gentleness that we have to have with each, with ourselves, um, and even more so with the other people in our lives. I, I was on a podcast called before this, which for someone else's podcast and, and we were talking about the couples that are going through this whole stress pattern. And the one thing I want to keep repeating to everybody is that the person sitting next to you while you're quarantining or in isolation is not at fault for all of this and even more. So my guess is that when someone is going through a very challenging, significant illness in a way, I feel like there's a lot of similarities. And, and again, from an outsider's perspective, but there's a lot of similarities to what we're going through right now in general to what's what's it? What it's like for someone to be quarantine at home, they can't do all these things. And therefore like all these extra burdens add up and you're put into survival mode.

Donita : 32:00

Yeah. Well, and I believe survivors starts the day, your actual physical treatment stops, you know, like that you enter survivorship and it's basically like, it's the hardest part. I mean, you did the actual, you already have a game plan. Like you'd go to the doctor and they'd tell you exactly what you're going to do, how you're going to do it. What's going to happen. They know all your side, you know, you might have something new that they have to deal with or figure out, but that you're very regulated and everything is very normal. Then you get, then when you're done, you ring the bell and you go home. You're like you said, it's like that a Friday afternoon. Or it's like, when you graduate from high school or college, you're like, okay, that was, anti-climatic what now? You know, but then the rest opens up, right?

Jason: 32:43

And then that's just with survivorship, like you inner survivorship with this whole entire new thought process. You're a different person. You're physically different. You're emotionally different. You have a budget scars emotionally, physically, you know, you're, it's, it's just a different situation. And the survivorship is where the growth occurs. It's where, you know, it's where you figure out like, you know, not everybody, but I would, I, I haven't to surround myself with a lot of people who are deep in denial and not on not intentionally, it's just seems to be the family pattern. And so when, you know, like denial doesn't play well with, with cancer, if they don't go well together. And I saw that with my mother-in-law, who was I telling you? She used to go to the doctor every Friday, every Friday. She would tell the doctor, I used to see you. I'm not sure why I'm here. And he would say, well, you have cancer. And she would say, Oh, well, if I had something, you would just give me a pill. I'm fine. Oh, okay. That's so serious. Really good denial, Those Rose colored glasses, right. That, um, you know, a lot of people need to live that way, unfortunately, and that's self protective mechanism, but, but it doesn't put you into proactive state, right. It's either, you know, it's, if you're completely avoiding and completely oblivious is one thing, but then we have the denial stage, right. Of just, I'm not going to handle it. It's going to go away by itself minimizing. Right. And you have the people on the other side of the coin who are maximizing, right. Everything now is horrible. Everything else is going to go wrong. If this happened to me, what else is going to happen to me? And right. We're all predisposed to our psychological, uh, whatever, you know, things that are going to show up in certain ways. But it's, it's, you know, from my perspective of having worked with numerous clients, who've gone through this experience either during it or post is, is, you know, building that support system, not just a friends and a family members and really getting people who are proactive and informed, you know, on what to do, you know, but you know, the therapeutic process and making sure they do have someone that is well versed in this type of healing. And, you know, trauma is trauma is trauma. The narrative is going to be different. And again, I'm not diminishing one's experience from other, but right. There is the trauma connection runs deep, no matter what.

Donita : 35:06

Yeah. And you can't really gauge anybody else's trauma and you have to really like, just work on your, and I think that denial is great. Um, I learned to use it in certain, in certain times to like it, it doesn't have, it's not all bad. It's just, um, I guess my survivorship made me dive really deep into who I really was because I did not want to do it again. It turns out I had to do it four more times, but at that moment in time, I really, really didn't want to. And when I was diagnosed, when I had my second hysterectomy, I had two hysterectomy. Cause that's always fun. And then the second one was when I tried to commit suicide. And I I'm, when I tried to tell people, like I tried to tell my mom or my best friend, they were like, it was so uncomfortable and they couldn't handle it. So they just, we just didn't have the conversation. They were like, Oh, that's not true. That's probably not what happened. You're like, well, I'm glad you're not therapist. Cause like, that's definitely not answering your and you know, like, cause I was wondering why I tried it too. You know, like for me it was more like a dream. I woke up on the beach with a brick in my hands and I was like, what is happening right now? Why am I at the beach? Why do I have a break my hand? Why am I standing at the water? You know, what, what is going on with me? Um, and it was just, it was so clarifying. It was so clear to me what I needed to do from that point forward. And um, and I always say this joking to kind of cut the seriousness, but you know, I was a really good swimmer brick, really? Like that was a good day. Now

Jason: 36:47

Thinking about it, like your fight or flight part of your brain is really, you know, it's not the problem solving part of the brain. It's the survival instinct brain. So you're at your rational brains. Like yeah. That's yeah. I'll be able to get my way out of this. But the other part of like, I don't know if I can survive, you know, I don't want to necessarily survive this anymore where that would make sense. Right. Where there is a juxtaposition between your rational brain and your non rational part of your brain fighting against each other. But the survivorship of feeling in that dark, that, that place, right. That again, stigma and people like, Oh, you had these suicidal thoughts and suicidal tendencies. And like, like I still want to take a few minutes if that's okay with you with your permission to like just unpackage that space. Because right now, unfortunately we're hearing about medical practitioners who have taken their life because of the COVID situation. And we know that there's people at home who've lost jobs or are going through whatever they're going through and they're isolated and they're not able to talk to people or connect with people of all ages that are feeling significant despair and possible thoughts of suicide. So what, what helped and how can people identify that it really, this is something very serious. It's not just like, Oh yeah, I'm thinking about it. The idea is I'm overwhelmed, but like, how do you know, you really do need help? And what can they do in that moment?

Donita : 38:03

I think with me, my biggest hurt came in telling people, you know, like, there's that line, you always hear, Oh, mental illnesses of quiet. You know, several of my son's friends committed suicide, you know, it was weird. He was 19 and a half, like four kids commit suicide in his age group, which is a lot. I grew up with a family in El Paso that everybody except for two members committed suicide. That was a big story. And we, my biggest part was in trying to tell people, look, I wanted to take my life. I know exactly why, but like you said, the stigma, the judgment, the, the not wanting to talk about it. People don't want to talk about it. And you know, I try to open the dialogue and say, no, like I bring it up. Almost every interview I'm with one of my people in my life said to me, are you trying to get attention? And I was like, no, he pretty much wanted the opposite of attention when you're trying to commit suicide. Like literally no one speak to me. And no one talked to me for a span of time that I could disappear. And you won't notice for a little while, you know, that that is, so it was, it was more the people who, the people who taught would talk to me about it, that weren't medical professionals that were like in my life by choice and the people who would address it and the people who would say, well, why do you think that happened? Are you okay now? Are you okay? Like, I still have a friend who asked me, this was almost two to two years ago. Yeah. It was just two years ago, April like second. Um, I'm trying to think when that was, but, but you know, I still have people say, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you doing okay? And they're so kind in the delivery that I know that they're not being judgemental, that they genuinely care. But out of, let's say if I have a hundred friends to ask me, so, you know, I think the worst is when your family doesn't want to talk about it. You know, my kids were like, no mom. And I get my kids, I get it. I understand why they don't want to talk about it. My mom couldn't talk about it. And I understand, I understand that relationship. My husband would have talked about it if I had pushed it. But you know, he is the son of the mother who never had cancer. So I know my limitations, but I just, I think when you're going through that, and you do have the, you, you don't, you're not successful. It's not necessarily a cry for attention or help maybe, or I don't know, medically, it may be, you may know that better, but from my personal perspective, I didn't want any attention or help. Right. Then I wanted to understand what was happening to me on the inside. Cause I didn't understand. And I didn't understand, you know, why I kept getting knocked down. Why would I get one more diagnosis? Why did I have to have two hysterectomies? Why did I have to go through menopause three times? Like why do I have to be the person that has to do it multiple, multiple times? It's like, I'm not that sort of a learner. I can learn stuff. And I had good grades and I was good in my class. You know? Like, why is this keep happening? And then you, then people are like, well, get over yourself. It's just this vicious circle that goes around and around. There's a lot of,

Jason: 41:14

Of contradictions that it seems right. It's it's, it's you say this, but don't ask, but don't you can say this right. As the person going through it. But people think like, why shouldn't ask that and you shouldn't say this and they shouldn't say that. Right? Like there's all these different variables that are going on. And like in anything people are just afraid to, to, to, to make someone like, not like them for doing the wrong thing. Right. If you're some level of consciousness, right? Like I don't want to offend you. I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to, I don't want to trigger you. I don't want to push your buttons, but there really is. No one size fits all except for like ask what's. Okay. Ask what's okay. To talk about ask. Right. And then I tried to couch language a few minutes ago, Mike, is it okay with your permission to John package that a little bit more? I wanted to make sure. Cause we didn't pre we didn't pregame plan this part of the conversation. And if you said no, we'll be like, okay, great. Let's move on to the next thing

Donita : 42:09

I would have given you my new I've learned how to be nicely passive aggressive and just not do it. It's a new talent I'm learning up here. Definitely different from the East coast. So I would say that. Yeah.

Jason: 42:21

Yeah. Well, are you finding that there's parts of your personality that have become,

Donita : 42:27

I don't. I use the word resilient because I believe that like in this scenario of everything you've been through is kind of a watered down term for this. But like, are you finding that there's parts of your personality, that in the healthier ways are stronger and more efficient and more effective? Oh yes. Definitely for me. Cause I was a yes person. So now, um, I mean it's not convenient for anybody else because they don't like me not being a yes person, but you know? Yeah. I, um, I, I definitely think that I, my personality I've grown, I did so much inner inner work in the last 10 years. I mean, I, I joked I'm not joking. I mean, I think I told you off the, off this, that I've been in therapy since I was like, I don't know, maybe 12, 11, 12. You're not done yet. What's wrong with how are you

Jason: 43:20

Fixed? But that's the stigma, right? Again, talking about stigmas and being playful, like what do you mean? You have a therapist that you keep going back to you at different points in her life?

Donita : 43:28

Yeah, no. Yeah. And like, and it's funny because with me that I'm like a chronic therapist. Like I have all these different ones, but they serve different purposes things. And lately the one that I worked the most with is my spiritual, my spiritual counselor, because that's the growth that has taken the most growth for me. I looked inside me and I took all the labels that everybody else had given me my whole life. And I put them over here in a pile. And then I, when I did me, I would pull out the labels that still worked. And if they didn't work, they went straight to the trash and you know, that's, that's what I needed to do for me.

Jason: 44:07

Yep. Well, I'm late with what's that joke labels are only meant for clothing. Right. But then I'll add, but unless you have like sensitive skin, then like there should be no labels whatsoever or like actually sensitive human beings. Right. We should just get rid of all that.

Donita : 44:19

Well, and that's like, I had always been told you're too sensitive. You're too stop being so sensitive, stop being. So, you know, this is ridiculous. And now come to find out giggle, giggle, being in, in therapy my whole life. There's such thing as a highly sensitive person, which I have. So I was like, why did that never come up?

Jason: 44:41

And I've actually been plotting and planning to eventually do a, do an episode on the HSPs. So it's a lot of debate about that. Right. And, and one of the myths just to like debunk it, I was in a Facebook, a therapist, Facebook group the other day, and that came up and you know, again, the, the intuitive or the, you know, highly sensitive person, is there anything there that's connected to that. Right. But, but someone's like, Oh, that just means that you probably have really poor boundaries. And I was like, wow, like way to like project a lot of your own crap on that one. Right. Coming from a therapist. Right. Who is such an interesting, right. How, how all of these different energetic personalities are, are, are misunderstood. So yeah, definitely for those of you out there that are listening and you know, you're like, what's an HSP, like do some love, just go, go Google, Google, highly sensitive persons. Um, right. And, and the intuitive person. Right. And there's one of my favorite stories is, um, at a client years ago, um, and I'll quote, books and movies and like, you know, song lines. And there was one thing I'd never found. There's sometimes I'll use the similar stuff, you know, but I once said to this person, I'm like, my God, you sound like the little engine that could, and the person's face turned white and I'm like, I'm sorry, did I offend you? They're like, no one of my family members wrote that book no way, no way. And I'm like, okay, that was weird. Cause I've never used our quota, that line ever process. Right. So, so yeah. And I've had other crazy wild experiences that I'm like, okay, why am I saying this? Why do I feel compelled to say or ask this question? And, um, yeah. So whether that's right intuitive or highly sensitive person, I, whatever, I don't really care again, going back to a label, but I feel like as healers, right. As, as healers and we all need to be healed, we have to be in touch with that.

Donita : 46:32

Absolutely. And we definitely have to, um, you know, you have to be aware of, I think my biggest thing that I learned was that I did learn boundaries with the highly sensitive person, but I learned that for myself, you know, like I learned that I am sensitive. And if, if I mentally stop before I go in, like, this is how I learned how effective I was, my mother-in-law, you know, the one who didn't have cancer, she would be sitting on the couch and I could tell like her hip would hurt or hit. I could tell exactly where it hurt. And I would say, Oh, I'm sorry that such and such hurts. Well, how do you know that? I didn't say anything about that. It doesn't hurt. And then later in the day she would say, Oh my so and so hurts because she had some memory issues and I would say, Oh yeah. And I would just look over at my husband, like I told you. And it that's when I finally realized my full potential of actually absorbing energies that are around me. And it derates people that you're in the room with it infuriates them. Cause it's like, you take their, their current in a way. And you're like, I can see straight through you, but it's not fun. And you can't be asked me at that point. Right. And that's, that's the thing you don't want to like, you know, really throw in their face either. Yeah. It's hard to have a hard balance. It's hard not to be like, Oh, okay, whatever. Um, but I got some practice with her because she did have the memory issues and we were stuck inside for seven months. We didn't go anywhere or do anything. So I got to kind of perfect that, and it really showed me that It's really a good way to kind of get your place in wherever you are. Exactly. Exactly. One of my favorite, favorite, favorite crazy stories happened when I was working before I was in my own private practice, I was working in a group practice and I met my office door would walk right out into the hallway where the checkout was for the clients before they went back into the waiting room. Um, and I was walking out, I was done with my guests either. I didn't have a session. I was whatever it was, but there was another therapist client in there that I would see and right around then I would always say hello to everybody. And I walk by them and all of a sudden I had this massive throbbing pain in my forehead and in the back of my, like the right side, I remember it specifically, it was like at the top of my top of my head above my hairline and the back.

Jason: 48:56

Right. Um, like my occiput area, right. The back right here. And I turn around and I'm like, I'm so sorry to bother you. Do you have a headache right now? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, yeah. Like, I dunno, like I know it's weird. And like, but do you have a really bad headache here and here? And like, how did you know? I'm like, yeah, just ignore me. Like I just picked it up by walking by you. And I just kept going and like, who knows how many therapy sessions that person had to have about that. Right. But like, you know, you gotta keep them coming for the, for the other, for the team. But like, I was like, what the heck was that? Like, and that was probably one of the first big things where I'm realizing like, okay, there's something energetically going on that I gotta tap into and maybe, you know, protect myself, whatever that means when they talk about that and hippy the B terms. But like I had no clue of these things being a, you know, I'm like, eh, I'm going to ask you questions and I'll help you figure it out. But like energy sensitive people exist out there. And that's probably why a lot of people get stuck in such a deep and dark and negative place is because they're not mindful that they might be so energy sensitive. And that it's a lot of that. Isn't theirs.

Donita : 50:04

Well, and if you've been picking it up since you were a kid and you didn't know it, you got a lot of luggage on you that has another, you just like you it's like you live in Lawson sound.

Jason: 50:14

And I do have this like kind of like psycho, spiritual belief that like, that causes disease. And like, if it's the toxicity enough, right. That causes cancer. I remember like I was, you know, there's this story of, um, you know, in my family, we have, we have, uh, on my dad's side, we have a history of it. Like the family legacy on that side is grudges. And, um, unfortunately, and it's, it's something that's being unpackaged. And I remember going to like the, the grave sites in Pennsylvania where my extended family's buried and, um, there's some cutoffs in the family and, you know, I was with my dad and we were going, were visiting people. And there was one grave you wouldn't visit. I'm like, it's been 40 years. Yeah. Gotta let that go. Let that shit go. And I'm like that stuff's going to cause cancer like that causes disease. Like you gotta let that toxicity go. And, and, and you know, and God bless them. But like, I do believe that as a therapist sometimes, you know, truth to power, as they say, right, look at like emotions cause disease. We know that from the research traumas and triggers causes, right, does this ease in your body? And that's all thing of why I love neuro emotional technique and the incredible research that's coming out about it. And why that we know that with this treatment, we're going to allow your body to help itself heal when we get rid of triggers and traumas that you're unconsciously and subconsciously carrying

Donita : 51:32

Well. And I think as a H as a highly sensitive person, when you're living in Los and found like, think about how dank and discussing loss and found is like, if you're like, I got my glove out of there, it's going to take it over here and wash it. I'm like, you could walk by it in school and it, and you know, it smells bad. And like the whole nine yards, right? You figure that, that Lawson sound can smell bad and people don't want to touch it. You walk by and you're like, you would just give that away or something. Think about what it is your body. Like, it's the same thing as that disease, you know, dis ease in your, in your cells are always spying on you. That's why I say that all the time, every cell in your body has always spying. When you have your thoughts, your words, your actions, nothing escapes them. They are the best little CIA agents around. Right. Like they do it all and they know way before, you know, like, and I think my body was trying to tell me, I knew when I had this melanoma last April, I had it cut off right before my son's wedding in Miami, at Mount Sinai. And the guy was like hair up or down. And I was like, just, I would like to keep my ear, okay. I don't care about my hair up or down. I just can't keep my ear. Right. And he's like, Oh, it won't be that bad. It didn't end up being way more than they anticipated. Always, always the case. And so I, but it healed so quickly because I had already decided before I went in. Cause I found that when I was in Tennessee and the isolation, I was like, okay, this is going to be melanoma. That's going to be bad. They're going to cut it off and it's gonna be fine. It's going to go away. That's exactly what happened because that's what I told myself for six months before it happened, I was like, you're, it's going to go away. Cause they're going to cut it off. And I already knew they would skin graph back here and put it up here. And you know, like I was just like, it'll be fine. It was the second, most deadly cancer I've been diagnosed with. And I was like, whatever I'm done, can you just cut off? And we go please.

Jason: 53:21

Right. That, and that's the powerful thing about our mind and our capabilities and what I about the law of attraction world. So to speak not, and I'm not talking about that. Like, Oh, if you think about, and you talk about, it's going to show up, but it's already, you've committed to the feeling of already being healed of what your life will be like as if it already is done. And that's what that sounds like to me. And that's one of the things that I try to impress upon my, my therapy and coaching kinds is like, no, like there's on the tangible tactical side. I can help you also. But like, I want you to also know what is it going to feel like? Because people are like, well, I'll know when I get there. Well, what's the, how are you going to know, like, what are the indicators, but what you just said, just cut through all of that. And you're like, I already know it's done and solved. I just have to let the reality catch up with that. And I really,

Donita : 54:05

And you don't have to know all the nitty gritty details either. Like, I don't need to know exactly. What's like what they shot in my ear. I will say it was extremely painful, but you know, like the, that, and I, it was funny. Cause my, when my mother in law, it's not funny. I'm gonna tell myself she had, you know, she had pain pills and I don't take pain pills, but, and you can't get them anymore or I couldn't get them in Florida. And so, you know, like she had, she had two or three, um, what's the one Vicodin, is that a pain pill? Yeah. And so, um, I, when we were unpacking her stuff, there's like three in the bottle. My, this was like, she didn't throw that out. And I was like having 11 surgeries, I don't know, hold on to that case. So I know legal and everything, but I, when I had my ear done, he's like, I can't prescribe it anymore. And I was like, Oh, it's okay. I got some. So I did, I used two days in a row. I used it on my ear more than I use it when they did the full hysterectomy. It was more painful on top of my ear. But like you said, it was like one and done. I'm like, look, look, I know this is going to be done. And I know like now I know that I feel very, every cancer I've learned something, every cancer I'm, I'm layering, all the things about myself that I need to know and understand to be the best person I can be for anybody else. So, so I have every cancer is taught me those lessons, right. And that last night I was thinking, I literally was thinking last night, I think I'm good with lessons. Like I think I should be done with the whole cancer rap. So I was essentially telling myself, I'm done. Like you're done. If there's cancer in there, you need to flush yourself out and go, cause I'm not playing anymore.

Jason: 55:47

I love it. So I know there's so much more weakened unpackage and so much more we can get into, but I also want to be mindful of, uh, other things that are going on in the universe. So I want to help people help. How can people track you down if they want to, uh, bring you into their world as a resource? Where can they find you?

Donita : 56:03

Well, I, I do. I'm going to say a couple of things. I have, um, a free, um, mini workshop every Monday at 4:00 PM Pacific standard time or Pacific daylight time on, um, anxiety as an energy. So we use the idea that anxiety is an energy and the three, three different kinds of, um, anxiety, energies. And I go through that as a four weeks. You can jump in any time. It doesn't matter if you miss. I recap the, the only ongoing same information every week, I encapsule the first 15 minutes anyway. So I recover it and we do that every Monday at four o'clock on zoom in go to my Facebook page. Um, donates a mama bear. Um, my Instagram, uh, donate to mama bear, Twitter, same. And then I have a website www dot donitamamabear.com. It's donitamamabear.com. It's a lot of people misspell mama, wait a minute. My maiden name was bass people, misspelled bath. I was like, no, it was like bath, like bathroom, bath tub. It's not that hard. They're like B a T H E like, no, that's bait and it's fast and it's not Beth. It's not that hard. So, and Wheeler to sit there and like, we'll allow her and like, Nope, no, no, just like real or you know that arm,

Jason: 57:25

Same with Wasser though, right? It's West.

Donita : 57:28

No, We're in the same boat. So yeah, that's there. Did I tell you this? My lovely parents. So, um, you know, my main name is Beth and my name is Donita. So don't need a bath. Um, my friends and the neighborhood came up with that pretty quick. One of my friends, uh, Jason Casper, who from El Paso is one of my husband's friends. It was his age. He came up with that and about third grade. So that was fun. Um, you know, so my name has always been a very S uh, side thorn and Mike who you and I both know. And Alicia were like from Ben, Brandy, those, they were like, let's choose your name, like your, have a unique name. You could be like Ellen or Oprah. I'm like, Oh, okay. And they're, I'm five letters too. Now I'm sick. So I was like, that sounds fun. But anyway, sorry, I digress. Um, so you can find me on all the social media as I do the workshop. I just had a book come out is on Amazon. It's called Bare Myself. It's a very graphic, the first part of it, of my, all my things I've been through. And then the second part of it is what now, how to regain control in your life. Like how I used all those circumstances to regain control, to be able to start a business. And I mean, we're talking about a stay at home mom who was a teacher and I launched into the business world. So, um, you know, it'll be fun to see where that goes and, and how that grows. But anyway, you can find me on all of those. And, um, my email is donita@donitamamabear.com. So if you want to get ahold of me, I'd be glad to talk to you. I have all sorts of fun ways to connect and, you know, I love the digital world and I love that we were forced to jump right into it and get going on it. Right. It was a, it was a good, it was a good, I mean, not that this thing has been good, but if there's silver lining, there's definitely, definitely silver lining in that, for sure. Awesome. And thank you for spending the time With us. I know that this is one of the more tough topics to tackle and, um, you know, I'm really glad that you're able to bring not only your personal story, but the solutions and the positivity to everything that you do and share with everybody out there. So thank you so much. Thank you for having me.

Jason Wasser, LMFT: Speaker 1: 59:41

Thanks for listening to the you winning life podcast. If you are ready to minimize your personal and professional struggles and maximize your potential, we would love it. If you subscribe so you don't miss an episode, you can follow us on Instagram and Facebook at Jason Wasser, M LMF T.